Monday September 24, 2007

Now the debate over gay rights threatens to drive a wedge between members of South Florida’s black community.” Bullshit. The debate over gay rights drives drives a wedge between the same two groups that it always drives a wedge between — rational people and dogmatic self-righteous assholes who have nothing better to do then tell other people how to live their lives.

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  1. The Florida Masochist    Mon Sep 24, 11:28 AM #  

    Critical,

    Make sure you tell us how you really feel next time. OK?

    Cheers,

    Bill



  2. Duran    Mon Sep 24, 11:33 AM #  

    I think you are sort of missing the point Alesh. This is sort of calling out on the black community’s hypocrisy. The very people who went through the struggle for equal rights not too long ago should be the ones supporting the gay community who although are not going through the exact same struggles, are experiencing infringements of their rights as Americans. That is where the conflict is: so in the black community although Christian see it on par with their struggles while others say it is not that same thing.



  3. alesh    Mon Sep 24, 11:57 AM #  

    Duran~

    Under that logic, white homophobia would somehow be understandable, or possibly even acceptable. I don’t buy that.

    I accept, so some degree, that the discrimination that was suffered by African Americans was qualitatively different from what is suffered by homosexuals.

    More to the point, it’s religion that’s causing the problem here.



  4. Duran    Mon Sep 24, 01:28 PM #  

    The point of the article isn’t about white homophobia, it’s about the black community. You are completely going off topic here.



  5. alesh    Mon Sep 24, 01:34 PM #  

    Duran~ My blog, my topic. I’m calling ‘bullshit’ on the newspaper article’s premise. This issue splits the white community exactly the same way as it splits the black community.



  6. Duran    Mon Sep 24, 01:44 PM #  

    Well then I guess I’m calling “bullshit” on your topic for overlooking the obvious point of the article.



  7. Biscayne Bystander    Mon Sep 24, 01:52 PM #  

    Duran, I disagree.

    To say that blacks should defend equal rights for everyone, because they themselves had to fight for equal rights, is unfair and places African Americans with an expectation that seems to go against America’s social tradition of discrimination. Where is the equal outcry against women (Suffrage Movement), American Indians, & Japanese Americans?

    Everyone is equally capable of biased, profiling behavior. In the early day’s of immigration, the Italians and Irish were regularly discriminated against. Their discrimination was based on religious intolerance against Catholics and continued until blacks began competing for jobs.

    The struggle African Americans have with accepting or supporting homosexuality is simply a product of our society. America has an illustrious heritage of discrimination, preferring a cultural melting pot model (different pieces being molded into one) over the mosaic concept (different pieces retaining their individuality while becoming part of a whole). By siting on the sidelines while another group is discriminated against means they are no longer the center of the majority’s ire.

    The problems homosexuals face will not go away with or without the support of the African American community. It can only be solved if the interests of the majority changes (READ: Insurance companies & lobbyists don’t want to risk the added liability).

    People should ALWAYS be judged on their personal character and not their race, faith, gender, or consensual orientation. Unfortunately, this is not America’s reality. If anything this topic punctuates the burden it must be for a black person to be homosexual.



  8. alesh    Mon Sep 24, 02:00 PM #  

    Duran~ Well then you’re going to have to convince me — how is a black homophobe different then a white homophobe? I’m not “overlooking the obvious point of the article,” I’m disagreeing with its premise, and there’s a difference.

    Bystander~ Thank you for saying that better then I could have. I have to add that blacks have a legitimate point when they point out the differences between racism and homophobia — you can’t pretend to be white! (I say this as someone who considers homophobia to be one of the huge moral failures of our society, mind you.)



  9. Duran    Mon Sep 24, 02:03 PM #  

    I never said black should do anything, but the point of the article was to point that out. Now you are taking my logic out of context. The black community is free to do what they will, BUT that is not to say that this group isn’t torn between two conflicts: their deeply rooted Christian beliefs and their past of civil injustice. The article clearly points out that some blacks, although Christian can’t support laws that restrict rights to homosexuals because that is just as bad as many of the “separate but equal” laws that existed not to long ago.

    Re-read what I wrote and you’ll see that. I’m arguing that Alesh’s point that blacks are no different from their white counterparts, which is grossly underestimates the internal struggle blacks face between their religion and their past.



  10. Steve    Mon Sep 24, 02:06 PM #  

    Our struggle is not the same…you can’t equate race and sexuality,” O’Neal Dozier, pastor of the Worldwide Christian Center, told one activist. “Slavery was not a choice.” — Miami Hurled

    Slavery wasn’t, but his monumental ignorance is. The moral conservatism of the Black church remains the Republicans’ best avenue for influence, as witnessed here. (Well, that and the monumental ignorance.)

    Many observers watch this, aghast that this nation’s most visible and enduring victims of institutional racism and injustice can turn around on what appears to be the same sort of issue, different victim class. If history is any instructor, they shouldn’t be. There’s the old drawbridge analogy, for one, plus the old saw about the comfort taken in crowds, belittling The Other for their Otherness.

    It would be nice if persecuted peoples expressed more solidarity with one other, but they’re usually too busy with their own affairs, and besides, we’re human beings and don’t give a rat’s ass about anybody else. You’ve got your troubles, I’ve got mine.



  11. alesh    Mon Sep 24, 02:17 PM #  

    Duran~

    I still think you’re wrong. In order for blacks to be more “conflicted” then whites, they’d have to be more sure then whites that racism is wrong. I personally believe that plenty of whites are just as sure as any black person that racism is wrong.

    Steve~

    “It would be nice if persecuted peoples expressed more solidarity with one other”

    That’s a great sentiment coming from a straight white guy. Nice work, Steve. Also, you were so busy pontificating that you missed Biscayne Bystander’s comment #7, which melts the points off your argument pretty well.

    “Slavery was not a choice” is bullshit in the sense that is assumes that homosexuality is a choice, but as I said, you can’t pretend to be white.



  12. Steve    Mon Sep 24, 02:45 PM #  

    Alesh asks: how is a black homophobe different then a white homophobe?

    The short answer: One likes to believe that people who get daily reminders — some deadly — about their own second-class citizenship might have some empathy for others similarly situated. E.g., it’s pointed out that there’s something especially rancid when Israeli Jews herd Palestinians into de facto concentration camps. Or when Miami Cubans turn their backs on Haitian boat people.

    The longer answer is nicely articulated above by Biscayne Bystander, among others.

    By and large, though, in the words of Joan Baez, it’s the distinction between cat shit and dog shit.



  13. Steve    Mon Sep 24, 03:03 PM #  

    Alesh: You’re right. I DID miss BB’s comment: it wasn’t there when I started mine.

    However, it looks to me, rather than melting my argument, we’re saying the same things. Had I seen that one, I wouldn’t even have added mine. And he did it better anyway.

    But you miss that because you’re busily abridging my comment, ignoring everything after the word “but,” which changes the focus 180 degrees of the section you quote. I said “It would be nice BUT…., sweetheart, which means it isn’t that way, as BB rather thoroughly explained.

    Nice move, Man Coulter….the kind of semantic spin from whiners perhaps made uneasy by words from “straight white guys.” Ha Ha!



  14. Biscayne Bystander    Mon Sep 24, 03:07 PM #  

    I believe Christians who denounce and vilify homosexuality as a sin don’t have a true understanding of Christ and His message. Jesus ate with and surrounded himself with sinners, tax collectors, prostitutes and just about everyone else that was discriminated against by the majority in power. Why? Because these were the people who needed to hear the message of God’s eternal love the most. Regardless of who you are, what you’ve done, and what others think about you, Jesus taught that we are all God’s children and all are deserving of His divine affection.

    Steve’s assessment is right on point and unabashedly honest.
    Duran, I disagreed with your calling the black community out as hypocrites, though agree that the black community is constantly at odds with itself.
    Alesh, Je$$e Jack$on would disagree..

    Racism is an equal opportunist. I know blacks that think it is wrong to date anyone not black, just like I know Indians who think you shouldn’t be with someone outside of their caste.

    What is truly remarkable, is that we’ve finally reached a point where we can all openly discuss our differences. Which is probably the greatest achievement against hate.